tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21068675.post6915472484659351177..comments2024-03-11T11:38:56.028-07:00Comments on A Fisherman Knits: Numbers 3Aaronhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05150805906414546377noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21068675.post-23291346150523471792018-11-26T22:09:30.793-08:002018-11-26T22:09:30.793-08:00I recall the numbers for pay for pounds of yarn me...I recall the numbers for pay for pounds of yarn mentioned a few posts back, and these "Hands" video spinners are producing fairly sturdy singles, not the superfine ones mentioned for the souped-up Traddy.<br /><br />It's possible that the "real" wheels were jealously guarded, but then what to make of the system whereby wool was put out to home-based spinners and then picked up again at the next wool drop-off?<br /><br />One of my ancestors allegedly came from Wiltshire, and I was looking for Wilts history. Found this chapter in A History of the County of Wiltshire: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol4/pp148-182<br />The information is mostly about cloth, wages, and ups and downs in trade and working arrangements from about 1550, not specifically about spinning, but there are references.<br /><br />There are some Longest thread feats mentioned for 1745 and the wheel is said to have been invented in 1533 (before which it was spindle and distaff) in a book of days facsimile on page 69 at https://books.google.com/books?id=q24oAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=spinning+wool+in+wiltshire&source=bl&ots=he1C6t8j8c&sig=5XhcWg1RFQJX8PLUduRhoV2vSTo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwix0qXm2PPeAhUDmVkKHbLNCus4HhDoATADegQIBRAB#v=onepage&q=spinning%20wool%20in%20wiltshir=false<br /><br />This discussion paper by Humphries and Schnieder critiques a work by Muldrew that derived spinning wage rates and argued that high wages for spinning labor incentivized investment in machinery (spinning jenny, for instance) - coming up with more modest estimates of productive capability and finding only a slight upward trend in wages rather than a marked one. Humphries and Schneider looked at various pay records. They factored in a general shift to finer cloth for which the spinning took longer, the various actors (pretty much kids, poorhouse residents, married/single/widowed women, convicts) and factoring in the time necessary to produce coarse and fine yarns when they could. They felt that the mechanization was probably not, as a high wage theory had held, the incentive for industrialization in fiber processing, but instead was mainly a reaction to inconsistent spinning quality and production rates: https://www.economics.ox.ac.uk/materials/papers/14544/spinning-the-industrial-revolution-for-discussion-paper-series-final.pdf <br /><br />So, at this point I am fine with souping up my Joy travel wheel so that I can save the world when the mega-tsunami comes - no problem there. But my gut feeling is that the guys who were mechanizing and automating and killing handspinning were responding to the demand-side fashion variations and trying to develop more reserve capacity so they could be responsive in meeting it. Even if there is a system of wool count that is pretty common, if your production capacity is spread out in small pockets over a radius of 20 miles, then that's gotta be frustrating. The makers of Harris Tweed nowadays paistakingly sample These days for consistency in the fiber (even though it is machine-spun and beamed) and cloth (even though it is being produced on fly-shuttle looms) before they put their orb seal on it. At this point it seems to me that the bigger players who invented the early machinery just wanted to be able to say "You got it!" to the market so they could make mo' money with less stress. :)DebDHRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15624339073258118468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21068675.post-27757162154812357482018-11-26T22:08:34.831-08:002018-11-26T22:08:34.831-08:00Not taking sides, just saying -
some of the pictu...Not taking sides, just saying - <br />some of the pictures above are at links that seem broken now, but in the first couple of ones still there I zoomed in on the pictures and honestly don't see a hand crank.<br /><br />I'm thinking the spinners used the spokes to turn the wheel, as spinners do for the first two of the three wheels in this video in the "Hands" series on Irish spinners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADU6GzmtZ1s<br />see timestamp 12:18 - 19:18<br /><br />In the last picture It looks to me like there is a conrod or cable extending from the back of the wheel toward the floor - like the flax wheel (the third wheel) shown in the video. And that strick in the Van Gogh painting looks more like flax. (I have, though, seen a video of a contemporary Italian guy demonstrating how he dresses a waist distaff with overlapping batts of wool, though.<br /><br />I'm reading through the blog from the early days, and I apologize if in a few posts someone is mentioning this video. I just didn't see where it had come up in discussion yet.<br />DebDHRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15624339073258118468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21068675.post-30847363620911587822015-05-16T09:11:51.140-07:002015-05-16T09:11:51.140-07:00Do you have pix? post a linkDo you have pix? post a linkAaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05150805906414546377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21068675.post-65585690829025678592015-05-12T12:09:13.371-07:002015-05-12T12:09:13.371-07:00I actually use (and own) one of those 7-frames you...I actually use (and own) one of those 7-frames you're speaking of. I've managed to use - successfully I may add - non-mill prepared roving. If you're interested in seeing my work, let me know and I can show you how it's done.<br /><br />"The question remains: Why is hand spun garment grade wool yarn so rare?" - is that a rhetorical question? Because the answer is fairly obvious, isn't it?purplespirit1https://www.blogger.com/profile/07515813222997239184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21068675.post-34521948670505246942015-05-11T18:01:40.131-07:002015-05-11T18:01:40.131-07:00In india, "hand spun" now includes those...In india, "hand spun" now includes those 7-frames that are driven by a person pedaling. I tried to get such a frame, but they are not being exported. Anyway they require a mill prepared roving.<br /><br />Likewise, modern Harris Tweed hand looms are driven by the weaver pedaling, but there is a Dobby mechanism and sensors, so all the weaver must do is pedal. The same technology is used in India for modern weaving for export.<br /><br />Still they are called "hand spinning" and hand weaving. As I write this I am wearing such a hand spun, hand woven shirt. Not only is the spinning and weaving excellent, the tailoring is very good. <br /><br />On the other hand, the price I paid for the shirt was so low that I do feel sorry for the spinners, weavers, and garment workers. <br /><br />The question remains: Why is hand spun garment grade wool yarn so rare? Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05150805906414546377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21068675.post-2346648139737643242015-05-11T13:15:01.097-07:002015-05-11T13:15:01.097-07:00There are many fine textiles being made in India w...There are many fine textiles being made in India with hand spun cotton. And those spinners and weavers do produce enough to sell commercially. Peruvian spinners are still spinning and weaving for commercial/tourist sales. <br /><br />Hand spinners are definitely still producing commercial goods.Briannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03350013133143998657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21068675.post-2199035464748156712015-05-09T14:41:24.872-07:002015-05-09T14:41:24.872-07:00You've got it backward, Aaron.
Clearly you ...You've got it backward, Aaron. <br /><br />Clearly you haven't looked at the work of many professional hand weavers who are using handspun yarns. Just because their textiles do not look identical to machine manufactured yarns does not mean that the weavers nor spinners are not professionals. Why would a weaver want to replicate a commercially available product when they could create a unique textile instead? Weavers are artists, not mass manufacturers, and as such, they look for yarns that do not look like the mass-made, mass-marketed products available everywhere (and "everywhere" includes Saks, Nieman Marcus, etc.). It isn't that the weavers - nor the spinners - lack the skills. They just don't see any point in replicating something that is manufactured in Asia at a pittance to the workers who do the weaving and sold at an exorbitant price in Neiman Marcus. There are weavers and spinners, such as those I have met at Colonial Williamsburg, who are interested in reproducing period textiles, but those fabrics are, for the most part, not of interest to the Neiman Marcus customer. How many people do you know who want to make something from linsey-woolsey? Not many, I expect, and yet that was a common fabric in the 18th century. When was the last time you spun flax and wool for a bolt of linsey-woolsey?Holin Kennenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13079029241630786180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21068675.post-84034782956847535372015-05-09T11:08:28.617-07:002015-05-09T11:08:28.617-07:00My point would be that I do not have many teachers...My point would be that I do not have many teachers, so it takes me a while to figure things out.<br /><br />I have been spinning for ~7 years. The people that have been spinning for 20 years just do not seem to me to be "professional quality".<br /><br />That means that weavers do not have professional quality hand spun yarns to work with, and thereby have not gained the experience to produce professional quality hand woven fabrics from ( professional quality) hand spun yarns.<br /><br />I started knitting 19 years ago, and this winter, I changed my tools, developed some new skills, and moved on to a much higher level of knitting. <br /><br />In this last step, I did not have any teachers -- only naysayers telling me, "Don't be stupid, that will never work!" However, it does work. And as I look again at the pictures of old knitters, I see that it is in fact how they worked.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05150805906414546377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21068675.post-24505053175799560502015-05-09T08:49:51.970-07:002015-05-09T08:49:51.970-07:00And how many bolts of fine fabric have been woven ...And how many bolts of fine fabric have been woven from the yarn that you spun by hand, Aaron? Your point would be what?Holin Kennenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13079029241630786180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21068675.post-61587817809685539592015-05-09T08:11:08.310-07:002015-05-09T08:11:08.310-07:00Last year the US textile mills produced $16 billio...Last year the US textile mills produced $16 billion worth of fabric. How much of that was hand spun? No hand spun commercial textile production has been less than one part in a million for for a long time.<br /><br />Tell us truthfully, how many bolts of fine fabric have been woven from yarn that you spun by hand? Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05150805906414546377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21068675.post-12488901875125935812015-05-06T13:06:11.025-07:002015-05-06T13:06:11.025-07:00Your images and statements are, as usual, chosen a...Your images and statements are, as usual, chosen and interpreted to fit your imaginary version of history. <br /><br />Aaron, there were no photographs during the periods you are referencing, so painting and drawing were the only way of recording what spinners did. In case you haven't noticed, photography hadn't been invented yet. Several different kinds of wheels were available at different times, just like today. We are still spinning on treadle wheels even though current, mechanized spinning is done on gigantic machines. Does that mean that a photo of a spinner using a treadle wheel is inaccurate? Of course not! Some of these spinners you show may be using older styles of wheels handed down through the family, just as they are now. We still use great wheels today, and they've been in use for about a thousand years. People don't abandon usable tools. <br /><br />There are images everywhere of people - most of them women - spinning wool and other fibers into yarn/thread to be used for clothing Now unless you want to assert that there was some secret conspiracy among all the artists of Europe over 900 years or so to misrepresent the details of daily life - including spinning fiber into yarn to make fabric to be worn - you'd best get back to learning how to warp up that loom of yours which is gathering dust because you haven't figured out how to use it yet.Holin Kennenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13079029241630786180noreply@blogger.com